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March 31, 2022

Raging Gracefully: Speaking in Thumbs

Nina Collins is in conversation with Dr. Mimi Winsberg.

My passions are excellence in patient care, endurance exercise, and spending time in nature. In my spare time, I can be found trail running, on my bike, or telemark skiing.

Nina Collins is in conversation with Dr. Mimi Winsberg, author of Speaking in Thumbs: A Psychiatrist Decodes Your Relationship Texts So You Don't Have to.



From Mimi:

As a Stanford-trained board-certified psychiatrist with over 25 years of clinical experience, I tailor my therapeutic approach to the individual's particular needs and goals. Psychodynamic, cognitive-behavioral, and mindfulness-based approaches are all used, along with medication. I treat mood disorders, anxiety, relationship problems, women's issues, disordered eating, sport performance, as well as adjustments such as divorce, loss, medical problems, career changes. Medication is best managed in the context of a psychotherapeutic relationship. I strongly believe in the role lifestyle and physical health can play on emotional health, and I incorporate these principles into my therapy practice.  

As a pioneer in digital health, I have helped develop evidence-based health care technologies that optimize patient engagement and clinical outcome, helping patients track their progress and define success in their treatment.  I have served as the on-site psychiatrist at Facebook headquarters.  

My passions are excellence in patient care, endurance exercise, and spending time in nature. In my spare time, I can be found trail running, on my bike, or telemark skiing.


This transcript was auto-generated and lightly edited, please excuse any errors in spelling or grammar.

NC: I've actually met Mimi once before and weirdly we have an old friend in common, but I met her when I was in San Francisco recently, and um I instantly liked you so much and I'm so impressed with your book speaking in thumbs um. So i'm very very glad to have you here and I have a million questions. One of my questions from the get-go is how does text really differ from email? Like I don't I mean, I guess we use more full sentences in email, but what does asynchronous communication mean? 

MW: Well, I think asynchronous means that we're right now we're just we're speaking synchronously, so we're both in the conversation at the same time and asynchronous implies that the responses are happening um at our own time. At our own pace.

NC: I see so anything email is an asynchronous form of communication?

MW: For sure I think, what's different about slack in texting is that it feels like more of a back and forth, but it's happening asynchronously. So it like,  email I think is a little bit more formal in its style, whereas texting feels conversational, but is nonetheless asynchronous and lacking in all these cues that we rely on in conversation like eye contact and facial expression, body, language, um and response time. 

NC: Yeah, I'm currently not dating. I'm in a relationship of four years um, but your book made me think a lot about my communication with John. I think one of the most interesting things in the book for me is just the idea that um as a psychiatrist, you can identify language and use of pronouns and certain words that give hints to people's personalities that really interested me and made me want to try it. Also made me wonder if I or anyone were to force themselves to try and use more words to be a better person or be a different kind of person. Would that work could that work? 

MW: Yeah - can you reverse engineer this? And I think that's a really interesting question and one that I haven't seen a lot of research on. We have other evidence of that. So, for instance, smiling just engages the smile muscles - you get a little wave of happiness when you do that, which is um, which is a reverse engineering, of course right. 

NC: Why is that? 

MW: Because our smile muscles are wired to um, to our brains in ways that are related to feeling joy and happiness, and so just forcing yourself to smile can actually put you in a better mood. And, of course, you know send out good energy to people which is likely to result in good energy coming back, and so I think to your question of by changing our language, can we change um the kinds of communications or relationships we have and can we change ourselves as a person you know, can we become more generous by using more generous language? Can we become more curious by using more curious language? I haven't seen research on this, but I would argue yes that that, by asking more questions and by telling ourselves that I'm a curious person, I ask questions, my guess is that that, by using that language, we can actually change our own conduct in relationships and um that relationship. I would think so too, by thinking about what pronouns you're using and that you could actually have an effect. The interesting thing about pronouns is that it also betrays the language of power, so oftentimes there's a power gradient in a relationship and um that can be evidence through language. If you think about how the CEO speaks, there you're going to use the we pronoun a lot right, they're not going to be focused on the eye, and yet the lower employee is going to be very I focused and the same thing will happen in A para band where the person who has a little bit less power in the dyad is going to be more likely to emphasize the I pronoun, whereas someone in a position of power will be talking about you, your and or we and so it's possible to see a power gradient, of course, in the best relationships that power gradient is going to shift. I you know, I take a turn, you take a turn and we have a more equal um peer-like relationship. But of course, not all relationships are like that, and so you can use pronouns to have a window also into the power dynamic in your relationship. 

NC: That is super interesting. I would think, though, that the person using “I” all the time would just be automatically more narcissistic, but that's not necessarily the case. 

MW: You know one would think, but in fact what typically belies narcissism is possessive, like they'll use more possessive pronouns. In other words, there's a sense of ownership over you um, rather than um so much the I. There is an interesting word in uh James Pennebaker out of the university of texas has done a lot of research on this, and he calls I the shmu of words, because it can mean so many different things. It is a marker of self-focus, of course, but we tend to be so focused when we're in a more vulnerable position um, rather than in a powerful position. 

NC: That is fascinating. I know James Pennebaker's work from my graduate program at columbia, narrative medicine. He does all this work on storytelling and and empathy and healing and yeah he's really interesting. So that's like that's something I wouldn't have thought of. Is that so someone in the audience is asking for an example of the pronoun issue, so ann. What we're talking about is this um? I just love what mimi just said that the person in more power tends to use the we, you, your and the person in less power, and you can think about it in a love relationship, but also like in a work relationship CEO to employee or whatever the lower person in power tends to use I more.

MW: I think it's always possible to find an exception to the rule of course, general tendencies. But I think, if you're looking, if you're scanning back across your text, messages with someone - and you notice these - these trends, it is, it can be something to pay attention to and a reflection of you know of perhaps the power of gradient that does exist in your Relationship yeah. 

NC: So, I'm curious. What are ways are there ways you can really identify, um, a liar or any kind of pathology, and what would those be? And I'm also curious what your personal red flags are in texting. 

MW: Well lying is an interesting one. You know, and it's worth saying, that if somebody's good at lying it's hard to detect - and you know the fbi of course - teaches courses on this - one that I've taken but um, but it uh it is. It is difficult to detect liars, but there are certain telltale traits in language, so liars will drop that I drop the first person pronoun. Why do they do that? Because they're trying to emotionally distance themselves from the statement. So when they're telling you something that isn't true, they don't actually feel emotionally aligned with that so oftentimes the I is left off in a text message there's also an absence of detail or too much detail, but not the right amount of detail in the description of what’s going on and the detail is often devoid of emotion much in the same way that there's this emotional distance, so there's a whole lot of like random, factual detail without any feeling about what's going on, because in fact they don't have feeling about what's going on because it's not really happening so those are sort of two clues to spot, a liar um. You mentioned um, red flags and, and you know, do I have any personal red flags. You know everybody - and this is a point I make in the book. The book, of course, is less proscriptive and more descriptive in that it's full of juicy fun stories and reading text exchanges yeah, I'm not telling people like what the right partner for you is. I'm encouraging you to think about what the right partner for you is, and I don't think, there's one right partner for anybody, obviously um, but I would say what do I look for and what do i avoid? I think for me. I look for I tried to avoid any signs of controlling behavior earlier, early on you know and so um that's that's going to manifest by um assumptions, uh lack of questions. You know assumptions that um assumptions and presumptions, and then I would say another um red flag that I look for is um what I call in the book instimacy, which is, of course, uh a word I made up, but instead - 

NC: It's a good one though, and you know what it is right away and it's a real thing in online dating.

MW: Right, yeah, we've all felt it right where somebody is - this is kind of playing up the level of connection you have before there is um really reason to so. There's a presumption of intimacy that um that you know shouldn't necessarily have there shouldn't necessarily be space for that yet, and I think that can be another indication of it can be narcissism. It can be insecure attachment, or you know, avoidant detachment. In other words, a less secure attachment is to assume that oh we're besties now or that you know we should be planning our honeymoon after our second date um and um, and so those are things I look out for um. I think the things I look for are more um openness to experience and a sense of open-mindedness that can often be betrayed, and even things like word choice like curiosity can be portrayed in word: choice, yeah, well, the big five dimension of openness, um, yeah and And so again, the people who are more open will tend to use in some ways more expansive language. You know when we look at word choice, they're, more likely to use the words like the universe, poetry, folk together, you know, and so like just words that feel a little bit more um expansive rather than um closed and - and I would say accordingly if somebody's giving you one-word replies or not expanding on ideas that, to me is a turn off in the sense that it probably um is a reflection of the way their mind interprets things you know and um

NC: Yeah, yeah. What I think is so interesting about this,  I know a little bit of your personal story, which is that you got divorced and you know started online dating and like so many of us at midlife right and I wonder, um like as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking that I've been through some, so many of these I've experienced. I had a relationship with one guy who was really kind of a pathological liar, and luckily it was a short-lived relationship and I didn't feel in love. So it was, but then it was four months and then he died about a year later. And when he died, I went to his service and learned that he was a huge liar that, like so much of what he told me wasn't true, it was really interesting and it makes me wish I could go back and look at those texts. I suppose I could try um to see what. I knew there was something off, but I didn't know the extent to which he was lying. So it's interesting that I fell prey to it and also early on in my online dating years ago, like 10 or 15 years ago after my divorce, one of my first relationships was one of those intimacies things um, where I didn't meet him, I made the classic mistake of like texting and phone calling for like two months before I met the person and I felt like I was kind of in love with him, and then I met him and wasn't at all attracted to him and had to like back out of this thing right, these are like classic mistakes we all make. 

MW: I think I don't think on that, and you know it's that unusual, they're, they're, absolutely classic and um and yeah. I think there's there's a lot to be said for gathering multiple sources of data, whether that's an in-person meeting in addition to texts or to your point, um meeting people in someone's life, who can give you a cooperative story right of what's going on? Um yeah but um, but it's interesting on the lying front because one of the things psychologically we do when we're interacting with a liar is we start paying more attention when somebody is lying to us it kind of like raises our antennas. Unconsciously, we start feeling like, I have to pay attention because I'm not - something doesn't feel right here, and so that's also a cue to look at in yourself, too. Is this idea of when you find yourself needing to pay more attention and um. As we said, the liar drops that first person pronoun I because they're um they're uh - you know, it's back to this power gradient again like people in positions of power, don't use I and then liars, don't use I because again they're paying attention um less to themselves and to the external situation that they're having to manage - 

NC: Well, it's also another lesson in really just listening to your intuition, because I have to say, with this guy Peter I kept saying to him - I don't know what it is, but there's something that's just not right here. Like I knew there was something off um and, and he kept kind of talking, trying to talk me out of it like and so yeah. On that front, I did a good job like I did just listen to myself 

MW: Right and - and I think that's such an interesting aspect of psychology and relationships is that um when we fall in love, we tell ourselves a story right and first, it's a story that we just tell to ourselves and then it's a story that we tell to other people and it's a story about this relationship that we're building and oftentimes as I said in psychiatry, the work is to look at people's stories, see the stories that they've told and then maybe help them tell a new story based on more objective data. Sometimes they're, you know undermining themselves in various ways, but in this instance, it is a matter of like looking at the actual data that's right in the palm of your hand. This conversation exists. We have a written record of it. What better way to objectively look at a person or look at your interactions with them and tell a new story and again sometimes we only have the luxury of doing that after the relationship's over, but it can be a useful tool, even mid relationship, to understand how do we fight, what's my stress response in regard to this person? How do they respond to us? You know when they're under duress uh, do they flee? Do they freeze, you know they uh attack me what, what's their response, and how can I see what the patterns are here and how can I potentially recognize something, or maybe even change something? 

NC: No, I think that's really true. I'm  just gonna hold up the book again for a sec - Speaking in Thumbs. I will say that in a lot of ways it's also a basic, very good relationship book, because it reminded me of all the you know you talk about the what's his name. Is it gottman the -  

MW: Yeah five pillars that are gonna tear apart a relationship right criticism, well for four horsemen of the apocalypse? What his moniker is - and you know it's useful: they are contempt, criticism, stonewalling and defensiveness. So those are the four bad practices. If you will. But I give people um, you know I like to try to take a more positive psychology approach to things. I give people four good practices to use instead, um that they can look objectively at their communications and say: okay, am I implementing these four good practices? 

NC: I found that really helpful, actually because now, four years into a relationship, as you also talk about, sometimes we're not as appreciative or as and so in reading the book, I thought. How often am I demonstrating curiosity and patience, which is not my strong suit, like understanding, I think, and acceptance. These are helpful reminders that they are important. 

MW: They are. It's interesting to see how texts change over the course of a relationship right. There was this um. There was this one um data scientist who looked at her - the word cloud of her text messages with her husband from first date and all the way through to six years in marriage, and you know, of course, the initial texts are peppered with you know, love and all these sorts of you know, love, date, restaurant and then it gets into dinner, now, milk, you know, and why - this is normal, but it's also something to pay attention to. If we want to maintain um some of that good feeling that we have in the first part of a relationship as we settle into the more mundane aspects of our long-term relationships. 

NC: Yeah, it's essential and I have to say coming to the end of Your book, I did have a little bit of a feeling well because you're, a psychiatrist and you're dealing with relationships and you're, seeing them all come and go, and I did have a not a feeling of um being let down, certainly not by the book. But the idea of all these relationships and all these text communications ultimately get mundane. I was like. Oh, this is so kind of. How do you keep the spark going and can you - and you know so - it's very much a relationship book looking at how yeah - 

MW: well and that's an age-old question right of how does one balance um novelty with security and how does one balance um intimacy With autonomy - and I would argue that these things do sort on different axis and that one can have a relationship - that's high in intimacy, but also high in autonomy or that's, you know, high in novelty and also high in security, but it is tricky to do it. You just you have to be really mindful to create these kinds of relationships and um. If we just um, you know let things kind of go uh according to gravity that's not always what's achieved. It's not gonna happen yeah.

NC: And do you? How do you feel about the work of Esther Perel because of course she talks a lot about this.

MW: Yeah and I quote her in the book um pretty extensively, but I would say um,I really like you know. I really like a lot of things that Esther has to say, and I think that she um she's, really explored this idea of um of creating space in in a relationship and maintaining some mystery, maintaining some novelty. How do you reconnect with yourself the way i chose to phrase it in the book? Um or I'd, say the model that I chose to sort of think about um. The physical model is to think of your relationship a little like a tripod where there are two I’s and then we. So you're trying to create a we together, but you don't lose the foundation of your own I in the process and that that's a more um, inherently stable structure than just two people, leaning against each other. You know if you, if you have a tripod, it’s inherently more stable when you have three legs, and so each person should still be grounded in who they are themselves. But then you come together to create a we too right and doesn't that kind of speak to ideas of codependency, and I mean  - 

NC: I have noticed that as I've gotten older, I feel like my relationship now, for example, is 2 I’s and a we. It's complicated, it's not easy to figure out and in fact, I'm arguing for this kind of life apart together model. You know this thing that people are talking about and my boyfriend does not really not quite seeing it the same way, but I feel like that's a way for women our age to manage that yeah. 

MW: I mean I think that there can be various manifestations of it, whether it's living space, whether it's lifestyle, whether it's language, you know all of those things - are reflections. I think of the way we of our own identities and the way we think about ourselves. The way we think about our lives, yeah.

NC: Are you in a relationship right now?

MW: Um yeah. We talked about this uh when we, when we um when we were chatting um at your event in San Francisco um so uh, not, I don't claim to have figured everything out, uh, not coming from the perspective of um. It's more that I think, there's much to understand um absolutely from these digital communications and that um, that the texts are kind of an interesting window into a lot of these issues that we're struggling with right now, collectively and one of the things I really wanted readers to have was access to all these screenshots. That are, you, know, they're throughout the book you can't get through a few pages without seeing an example of a text message between two people and as a psychiatrist  I read these all the time right. People show them to me, they show me their phones and they tell me about these um these conversations they've had and we look together at the text, messages - and I think, there's just so much collectively to be learned from these examples because we don't often get to see how other people are doing it and yeah. There's there's so much to learn from um from this collective knowledge, and so that's what I hope to share yeah. 

NC: Well, you do it beautifully. I mean I felt like reading the book, uh it's another reminder. I mean one of the purposes I think of community and of just of women being able to talk about their experiences, and people, in general, is that you understand how universal experiences are, and reading the book so many of these text exchanges spoke to me even if the people seemed very different from me, the the the tenor, the rapport, the dynamics going back and forth. It's very universal what relationships go through so yeah - it’s a wonderful book! My last question, for you is I was thinking about um you as a expert reading texts, has this kind of taken over your life? I mean, I know you run a non-profit called Brightside. 

MW: It's not a non-profit, we're a national telemental health company, so yeah I co-founded Brightside back in um in 2017 and um we've grown very quickly and um, not surprisingly, just because there's so many there's a huge need for mental health, yeah and um. You know we're now working nationally with commercial payers and so um. Our sources are covered by you know cigna and aetna, for instance, um across the united states. So it's comparable to say better health or all these other yeah. So that is better help but um we offer uh psychiatry and therapy services yeah and I think better health is really predominantly uh text-based therapy. So ours are a combination of video sessions and texting, but um there's a weekly video session with your license provider, so a little bit different model um, but we do use both asynchronous tools to manage people's care and um. We also have created these closed-loop, feedbacks and systems that really, as I said, collect data that help um surface in real-time to your provider struggles that you may be having as a patient. So um, like I said, a text message I think, can betray if somebody's depressed or even feeling, suicidal and knowing that in real-time could be very helpful and make all the difference. 

NC: I think so too. It actually makes me think about a precursor to this. Telehealth is um the crisis text line right. 

MW: That's right, yeah and I discussed that in the book actually crisis text line, so nancy, loveland who's the ceo of crisis text line did some really phenomenal research. She started that company yeah um reach out to teens, who are struggling and - and I think, by getting uh by collecting a lot of data, they were actually able to identify some very important you know word choice and word pairings and I'd absolutely use that as an example of how thin-slicing is applicable in this field at the intersection of psychology and language. So, for instance, you know what crisis text line found is that when we think of what are the most lethal words in a text message, you know what would those be? And, of course, most people are going to guess. Things like die, or you know, kill, and no it's 800 milligrams and ibuprofen. These are the most beautiful words you know is this is how people tell you that they're intending to do something dangerous is by the a drug name or a milligram dosage? Not these other words and knowing that and being able to pour through a lot of data and be able to recognize like what are the telltale signs, it's very important and I've sort of done the equivalent thing in our romantic lives. 

NC: Do you know what is the telltale sign that somebody is introverted um? What is the telltale sign somebody's extroverted? What words are they going to use that are going to let you know that in just a very brief text exchange? Maybe that can help you decide if you want to go on a first date with them yeah or continue seeing them yeah - um, that's really interesting! Well, I want to talk to you more about the telehealth, but I guess we'll do that in another conversation, one of my daughters has just become a therapist and she's working entirely remotely like it does seem like this is the future I would think of. 

MW: Well, you know really the pandemic drove everything remote just because that was the only game in town, and what we found is that um about 80 to 85 percent of behavioral health services had stayed remote throughout this um. Why? Because not that much is lost in a therapy encounter over zoom. You know it's not like seeing your gynecologist you're not going to do that very easily over zoom, but um, but your therapist, most of the cues, are are very available over zoom and you can form good rapport. I've been practicing telehealth for 10 years now, and so I think it's a great tool, it's great to be able to meet people where they are and reduce the friction of having to get them into the office. And, of course, there are big swaths of the country in rural areas where there just are no psychiatrists, and so you basically can serve people that you wouldn't be able to serve if by offering telehealth services yeah. 

NC: I think it's extremely win-win and I've seen it with my children, one of my daughters is seeing a therapist via tia. Another one has just started doing telehealth mental health. It's been really great, so I'm a big believer in it. Um, a question from the audience is Brightside, just in California? 

MW: No we're in all 50 states yeah and you can just go to um fill out an intake, we're treating 18 and over right now, but um we'll have services, for we have we're building out services for teens as well, but for the moment it's 18 and over.

NC: So but back to the question about you being a text expert are people coming to you from all different - is it just romantic or are you feeling like this has really taken over your profession? 

MW: Oh, I wouldn't say it's taken over anything per se. I mean you know most of my time is, is devoted to being the chief medical officer at Brightside and I still do work with um, I work with a handful of clients as well and um. I would say it's not taken over, but i think there's an interesting parallel in our work lives um, I don't know about all of you, but I spend a great deal of time on slack during the day and we're having such complicated and nuanced and - and you know, um sophisticated conversations over slack all day long right and it's done in these little bits and pieces and these responses emojis. You know thumbs up checkbox sort of all these things are taking place in this in this choppy way right now, rather than in the boardroom or in person, or you know, and over the phone very little of that much more slack, and so i think that um We've all been probably just as confused in the workplace of like what is this message from my boss, yeah well yeah and you know uh was this sarcasm or are they upset or is it intended to be funny? You know, and - and I think that that like using these tools in the workplace is also, of course, there's a big role for that as well. Yeah. 

NC: Well and your point that this is a new language that we're really trying to figure out and that we need books to help us think that through and understand because you're completely right, I mean the subtlety of also when we respond to things. I just had a very funny little little little argument with my boyfriend, where he didn't realize he had read receipt on and he didn't respond to me and I was like. I know you read my text, you know it's a classic yeah and he was like, I didn't, and I was like yeah you did you know, so these are all just the subtleties of our lives now - 

MW: And of course, there's read and there's read right, open versus actually digested delivered versus the things that I talk about in the book, of course, is like these gender differences that exist in how um men and women use language and maybe process text messages too, it's clear men can only handle shorter text messages than women. You know they get overwhelmed after 360 characters. That's about the average guy's limit in a text message - and you know if you give them multiple questions in the same bubble that that sends their brain into - I don't know what they can't respond to the ball, so so uh women are a little bit better in this on this front in terms of communication. What's also interesting is that when there's a lot of texting going on, particularly younger women, think oh, this is great. Our relationship's doing so well because we're texting a lot younger men tend to think um we're texting a lot,  things aren't going very well, you know so there's a discrepancy there as well um and then even in actual language use. So men use more articles. You know the uh and um: they use more noun clusters, whereas women use more pronoun noun clusters, we're using a lot more pronouns in our language, give a woman testosterone, and she starts speaking like a man. So this is so interesting that it's biologically based. You know that our hormones are actually driving the way we speak, and thus the way we communicate with each other and so being aware of these differences can be also helpful as you're looking as you're parsing your messages between you and your partner. 

NC: That is really fascinating. Makes me wonder so when I'm on hrt hormone replacement therapy does my communication change. 

MW: That's really interesting. Well, um, presumably you're. You know I mean if you were taking testosterone. It certainly would be um but uh, but you know I think, hrt typically low-dose estrogen, no you're, probably just speaking like a woman. You know what I mean versus our estrogen levels, of course: do wane with age um, but then again so do men's testosterone levels. 

NC: So right, um, okay! This really is my last question from the audience. How do you do a word cloud of your texts? I have no idea. 

MW: Oh well, you know that's a question for uh for um, an engineer but um you know. So it's! No! It's not something that you as a user without those tools can do, but they just uh yeah. A data scientist can easily pull that up where they um they can just look at the frequency. So that's what that means. A word cloud. They'll, look at the frequency of various words in a big cluster of messages, and so, when you've seen a word cloud, you see one word that looks really big and then all these like or like three-four words that look really big and then all these small Words around it, so the big words are the ones that are being used with great frequency, and you know a long long, um history of text like you, might take a two-year history of the text and see um yeah. Just find a data scientist who can do it for you. It would take them, it would take them a few minutes. We have to find a data scientist to do this for us and analyze our relationship text um and to the question in the audience. What have you learned about men who almost only send gifts or avatars? I would say pass personally unless you like that. So the i'll tell you what the research on emojis shows is that introverts use emojis with more frequency than extroverts do extroverts seem to be more comfortable using their words uh. That's i like someone who uses their words. I i feel like there's a sort of canned aspect to emojis that I know they can be certainly playful and clarifying, but um it's nice when somebody can use their own words and um. The other thing we know about emojis is that um, the kinds of emojis that people use can also betray personality, um factors, so agreeable people will use hearts in all of their forms, and you know more neurotic people are going to use some of those uh expressive facial emojis, like uh like the loudly crying phase or you know the weird screaming face or the weary face, um some of those more dramatic expressions tend to be correlated with with with higher neurotic neuroses um and that that's actually interesting what your emoji. 

NC: What's your favorite emoji?

MW: I'm not an emoji user. I mean every once in a while I'll send a thumbs up, but that's the extent of it. I do not use emojis um, you know and - and there's actually a little segment in the book where I joke that um, it's not easy being a psychiatrist who has to explain to people that you don't always understand emojis, but my teenage kids translate them for me. 

NC: Thankfully, I don't use them very much either, and I agree I prefer people don't use them, but I, my favorite emoji, is the shrug and I'm not sure what that is. I think the shrug is kind of funny yeah. My boyfriend never uses Emojis - and I take that as a good sign like I don't - I think emojis are weird. Well Mimi, I could talk to you forever. Dr. Mimi Winsberg she's, Harvard, Stanford educated super smart. The book is really doesn't read, it reads like a really smart. I wouldn't even say self-help book, um kind of relationship, book um, and I think it's got a little something for everyone. 

MW:You know, I think, there's there's a self-help quality to it, but I think that it, it also it's kind of uh both funny and a good discussion of um many of the factors we face in relationships yeah. 

NC: I was really impressed from the get-go. I really highly recommend it um, I think you'll enjoy it and we'll talk more soon Mimi. 

MW: Thank you. Take care, bye,

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