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February 10, 2022

Raging Gracefully: Walking with Libby DeLana

Jenny Douglas is in conversation with author Libby DeLana

Jenny Douglas is in conversation with author Libby DeLana about her new book, Do Walk: Navigate Earth, Mind and Body. Step by Step.

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‍About Libby:

Founder / Creative

A philosophy major from Mount Holyoke College and a graphic designer by trade, Libby honed her skills at the Boston Architecture Center and the Harvard Extenstion School, as well as under Milton Glaser and Jack Lenor Larson at the Haystack School of Craft. 

Libby’s work has won many industry awards, and has been featured in such noted publications as PRINT Design Annual, Graphis Design & Logo, Fast Company, Communication Arts and has been profiled by the BBC for the series called The Chain, “leading figures name the woman who’s inspired their success for the next interview in this audio chain.”

For many years, Libby has been a big advocate of developing more female leadership and talent in and outside of the ad industry – which has notoriously few senior women creative directors. She has also served as a mentor to the 3% conference, is on the board of directors for Newburyport’s Jeanne Geiger Crisis Center, is a wild advocate and avid volunteer at The Do Lectures, and is on the board of directors of BlinkNow, Maggie Doyne’s foundation which provides an education and loving, caring home to at risk children in Surkhet, Nepal.

Since 2011 Libby has been taking #thismorningwalk no matter where she is and has been documenting it on instagram as @parkhere (Park is her middle name). The idea came from a simple idea, to relearn how to see and to practice a simple gesture of gratitude each day. Join at This Morning Walk.

Libby lives in Newburyport, is a kombucha jedi, type nerd, impatient knitter, aspiring pilot, rookie fly fisherman and mom to two amazing tall boys.

Transcript:

This transcript is auto-generated and lightly edited, please excuse any grammatical errors. 

JD: My name is Jenny Douglas I am the hosting director for Revel which is um a fantastic new-ish and ever-growing platform for women in their 40s 50s 60s 70s and beyond to come together across the country and increasingly in cities around the world in both in real life events um and virtual events to comfort each other amuse each other enlighten each other um educate and affirm. And as part of that mission uh I am just so happy to be able to welcome Libby DeLana uh here to our Raging Gracefully interview series. And I would also really well I’m thinking about welcoming everybody who has shown up in support of this conversation uh both devoted Revelers and friends of Revelers and friends of Libby. We're just, even though we can't see you since this is a webinar we know that you're here, we’re happy to have you here and uh you will be able to um over the course of our conversation together ask any questions that come up and put them in the chat uh and I will take a look at them. I'm - I want to do my best to really be focused on Libby so I'm not going to divide my attention totally at the beginning of our conversation but you can be sure that I will uh dip in to look at the chat and make sure that your questions are conveyed to Libby uh before we finish. So with that in mind let me just say that I have spent the past couple of days just sitting with this beautiful book um Libby has written uh something that I have come to think of it's called Do/Walk: Navigate Earth Mind and Body Step by Step and I've come to think of this book -  Libby's part memoir part instruction guide and part prayer that you can hold in your hand. 

LD: Oh isn't that beautiful. I haven't heard that description yet, I may have to - I'm gonna hold that with me. I love that, thank you. 

JD: Well it's - so I mean I say that because I know that you have, you're a designer as well correct? And the book is just so it's so beautiful to hold and to go through there're beautiful photographs, space on the page, instructions, beautiful quotes from different walkers uh past and present that really inspire and in my case anyway in reading this just helped me in the very active reading to slow down and um kind of calm my nervous system a little bit so um that was the experience I've had just in immersing myself in your prayer that you can hold in your hand over the past day or so. And um so my understanding, and you can share more about this yourself, is that this um book came you out with is an outgrowth of a daily walking practice that you began one morning in I believe 2011, is that right? Really you did it and then you did it again and you did it again and you did it again and for over nine years you have been doing that daily practice to such an extent that um you've now logged how many miles in it is it?

LD: Enough to circumnavigate the world. 

JD: Is that right? And it seems like it's become so much more than a daily walk. So um I just, I guess what I would love to ask you first Libby is: what inspired you or what made you -  take us back to like that very first walk in 2011, did you know at the time that what was going to unfold would be would become the thing that it has been?

LD: Well um first off thank you for that description of the book I think you perfectly articulated um the hope for what that book is so that - just to back up one step um, the reason it's called Do/Walk is it’s published by a company called the Do Book Company out of the UK and they are in partnership with something called the Do Lectures. I am a devoted uh committed person to the Do Lectures they exist, they started in Wales, they came to the US for about 10 years, the US is no longer going on but they still run over in the UK. The way I describe the Do Lectures is something like this: it's a  TED Talks meets Burning Man with a splash of Where the Wild Things Are. So people attend for a long weekend and the people who give a talk, not a presentation, not a speech but a talk are living and staying with everybody who's attending so it's not as if somebody comes and stands on stage and disappears out the back door and so it becomes this really, really powerful community of what they call ‘doers’ right? Um I was supposed to give a talk on this walking practice in 2019 I 'm sorry 2020. We all know what happened; I'm due to give that talk in 2022 but many of the people who give a talk are then asked to write a book so it came out of - your very kind comments on the way it looks and the way it's laid out and the way it feels um I wish I could say I could take some credit but I don't - it's really a beautiful series of field guides. Really field guides for doers, and they have an entire series, it's a beautiful series so that's where it came from. And so the beautiful size it is meant to be a little pocket guide um really is thanks to the Do Book Company. My practice as you noted started in 2011 um to be perfectly honest life was grand, life is grand but life was grand then it wasn't as if I was seeking um some kind of solve or some kind of balm for something that was aching or hurting. Um I guess I just woke up one morning, I had, I spent my career in the advertising world, I spent 15 years at a big agency in Boston. I'm a designer/art director by trade. I left that agency not because anything was wrong but had, kind of had the itch to be an entrepreneur, started our own agency so in 2011 we had been running our own agency for a number of years. It was wonderful, have amazing partners, we had great clients and a healthy family, but I woke up one morning and I guess what I really realized was a key piece of who I was - and I look back to when I was 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 and I realized the key piece that really makes me truly happy is being in the outdoors, moving in the outdoors, hiking, whatever it might be. And that really wasn't part of my day and um my days were lovely but it was a lot of errands it was a lot of carpools it was sitting in meetings it was coming home cooking dinner and so I just decided that one morning I thought you know what I need to make time to commit to myself and also to that thing to get back to that thing that is exquisitely nourishing for me. It is grounding it is a teacher the outdoors is a teacher for me um it is also um as I said the place I'm happiest that in a way I feel most loved. I mean that sounds sort of funny, but I am myself in the outdoors um that's not to say I'm not in business meetings but I'm really there. So I'm a believer that you don't find time for the things that matter you make time. And so I just committed, I was going to get up half an hour earlier and just go for a walk um I spent my high school years and college years as an athlete so it took me it took me a little while um to get over my ego that kept saying wait a minute you're just walking why aren't you running? But the real intention wasn't sort of a workout or necessarily exercise it was to slow down and to be in the outdoors and so it was consciously not a run it was consciously not uh you know - I don't know what you know, whatever else I might be doing, cross-country ski or snow- you know snowshoeing or skating um it was a very intentional kind of thing. And so I committed to go for 30 days and I haven't stopped. That's kind of like Forrest Gump but here we are 10 years later and it was about two years ago I just quickly did the math and realized that I walked about 25,000 miles which is the circumference of the Earth. But having said that what's really important to me in this practice is the number of steps don't matter, the mileage does not matter the number of minutes I spend outside does not matter. But I know roughly what I walk every day so that's how I made my calculation. But again it is not about tracking my steps, um and that's not to say there's anything right or wrong about that, that's a wonderful practice too but um for me this was about being outdoors and as you noted beautifully it's um a little bit about slowing down. And I have a really dear friend Cheryl Strade who wrote a book Wild um and um in fact um we've um done some events together and talked about walking and one of the things she talks about is seeing the world at foot speed if we think about that as we pass through the world at a walking pace we see things very differently than if we drive through. So that no the notion of seeing the world at foot speed means we see we hear we smell our senses are more invigorated um and I always say my morning walk really taught me how to see not just look. And as an art director that's a critical thing. 

JD: Well I think that idea of foot speed is so beautiful, especially given the times that we live in now where so much is coming at us all the time, images, texting, social media, concentration or lack thereof and the pacing of everything has never been faster. I worry sometimes that we're losing a lot uh in the service of haste and speed and efficiency so the idea of foot speed to me is such a beautiful idea. And interesting that or not surprising that you should mention Cheryl Strayed because the very first thing that I wanted to do is just you know many people she's your friend which is fantastic and she's also known to many of us a lot of us a lot of the world is the author of Wild which is about her own experience of the transformation of her experience where was she walking where was that pacific coast? I mean of course it was made into a movie with Reese Witherspoon. But she says here - this is the way she describes your book: “An illuminating book that powerfully conveys a simple truth that putting one foot in front of the hour is a transformative act DeLana writes with insight heart and wit about love loss work creativity and the mysteries of being human. Do/Walk is a moving and wise book about one woman's long path towards enlightenment that also tells the story about all of us.” So I was intrigued by, I mean the whole thing is beautiful but the idea of two things jumped out at me: a long path to enlightenment and also the idea that your story and telling your story you're also somehow telling shedding light on a story that we all share or all can have access to. Um so, I'm just I'm thinking a little bit about that if you have anything to say or if you're feeling anything about the idea of your own long path to enlightenment and then also reach which is a larger story yeah.

LD: Well, thank you that's a great question. You know I happen to think that path to enlightenment is eternal so the long path continues, right? I will say that over the course of 10 years of walking um I learned something new every single day. All the time it is a teacher, it is the place where I learn the most about myself most about the world so um you know that that notion of trying to get to enlightenment is uh step-by-step and walk-by-walk and you know cold morning after cold morning. One of the things I have often said is you know people say, “well do you go every single morning?” I say, yeah I go every single morning and if i'm sick it might be a walk around the block that's fine but I get out and I breathe the fresh air and I go around the block. You know recently we had a lot of snow hair here and it is um pretty icy today actually um but um and there are plenty of mornings where um you know I wake up and that little voice you know that little voice she's very sexy she's very convincing the one that says “stay in bed you've done it for 10 years just chill out you're good we're good.” like yeah um and it is in fact on those mornings I believe that there's the most to learn. That's the day you have to go that's the day I have to go, that's the day I have to go it is um you know after um I wake up and that little voice says “don't go” um it's a clue it's time to go.

JD: I love that. Well you know, I couldn't help but be reminded a little bit as I was reading your book about well first the idea of like you're walking as a practice and not as you said like it's not about power walking it's not about losing weight it's not about being goal-oriented. I was thinking, I don't know if you ever read the book Zen in the Art of Archery talking about purposeful purposelessness which I love the idea of. You know the archery just don't try to get the bullseye just keep going and have it be a thing and I feel like that's what you're doing and I was reminded also while reading your book about my own 10-day silent meditation retreat that I did and how that was at once the hardest and best thing I've ever done in my life and honestly Libby like there was part of each day that I plotted my escape you know so that was that that the equivalent of like the sexy voice or if not the sexy voice just the voice saying “get the hell out of here you know where your car is you purposely didn't give your keys you know to your car keys to the admissions people because you wanted to be able to hold out the option to escape and you can do that Jenny and just say okay you know what just see if you can stay for another hour.’ And I feel like, I'm so glad that I did Libby I learned so much about myself getting through the fire of my own desperately not wanting to do it anymore.

LD: Right.

JD: And so for you to be engaged in the practice which is so admirable to me and I also really can understand the value I think of just saying it doesn't matter what the weather is it doesn't matter if you're sick I love the idea that you'll just walk around the block if need be and that you will tailor it to what you might be going through day-to-day but you won't bail on this thing that has really um given you gifts.

LD: Yeah and not only well, congratulations on 10 days silent retreat.

JD: I haven't gone back but I might. 

LD: But um that's impressive um you know sometimes I feel like my walk is a silent routine because um I you know there's somebody asked do I do it with by myself or with others and the answer is yes to all of that so during the pandemic friends and I would walk it was a great way to get together but most of the time I do walk alone. But um what was I going to say? I think you know the thing about the notion of a practice is um when it gets hard um as I said is often where the lessons are and it's also um it's such a beautiful commitment to yourself when you say you know what I'm going anyway, I'm going. You know the story I'm telling myself in my head that it's too cold that it's too icy that it's too well then you know shift your expectation of the day again go around the block but uh don't give up on the practice. And I think - interesting when you said you know you're plotting your escape which I totally understand. There are times I head out on this one path it's out on a place called Plum Island it is absolutely glorious. I walk about four or five miles out and I turn around, always when I turn around there's a headwind. I never remember it, every time I turn around I'm like “oh for god's sakes this is going to take me forever it's going to be cold I'm grumpy I didn't bring enough - I'd bring raisinets with me in my pocket or raisins all the time” and I, you know and that's when the step-by-step that's when the “I'm going to see if I can stay one more hour” that's when if it's a seated practice,it's just I'm going to acknowledge how hard this is. But the only thing to do is to break it down into each step.

JD: I'm thinking about, you know the the importance of this idea of practice as opposed to something goal-oriented and I'm just wondering about like I was thinking about how ripe the idea of practice is particularly to women our age and how like the idea of practice is something I would have been less patient for and with when I was younger when I felt like I couldn't afford to make mistakes because you know the perceptions of being younger and feeling like you have to chart your course in just such a way and if you derail it could be catastrophic. I mean I truly felt that way when I was in my early you know mid-20s working at a women's magazine in New York and, and miserable but feeling like I couldn't make a mistake or I would be forever off when I was older. And I feel like there's I don't know if you agree with this or not but I feel like one of the many gifts about being older is feeling um like there's more liberty to - I mean we've all gone through stuff at this age right and we've fallen off the boat many many times we've gotten back up so we've kind of come to understand if we're lucky that life itself is a practice yes and there's just a further girding in the thing that um we kind of have come to understand if we're lucky and open to that idea.

LD: I think that's it's beautifully stated and one could use certainly we're all familiar with the word practice and if anybody you know is has a seated practice or a yoga practice we know that word I think there's also something in the word ritual um something about um this ritual somebody just noted commitment to the process, not the goal that's right. That the ritual of going every day and seeing the sun rise and you know I sort of gently mentioned that this practice has taught me how to see not look and that's because I do it every day. I often do the same walk, there is one barn on my walk that I go past and I think she single-handedly literally taught me how to be a better art director because I would go past it the same day at foot speed and I would see her and she looked different every day, the color the sunlight, the clouds, the rain, my internal weather. And there would be days when I'd literally pause and just look at this structure this barn remember one day really feeling like you know this barns has a significant place in this community it has housed the dairy cows for probably a century has fed this community and so all of a sudden I saw this barn which is really kind of falling apart this point which I feel is like an elegant elder woman sitting there she's gorgeous and despite the fact that weathered here and there but um you know she is a as a um as a ritual process to go and look at the same thing day after day after day and to we all know that it looks different every day. We all know that we see it differently but to do it and to really um you know hold that experience as important is - 

JD: So true, it's so true. I'm reminded of two things one when i did that meditation retreat that i mentioned there was a big oak tree in front of the center that I was at in Northern Massachusetts close to the border of Vermont and that tree took on so much importance for visiting it every day for putting my hand on its bark for feeling steadied by it in a way that outside of that time that the container of that retreat I might not have been as attuned in a similar way. And then I wanted we do have a couple questions that I want to get to. Um I was thinking and I want to ask you how COVID has impacted your practice. Like I do remember when um COVID when we were at the when it was raging and we didn't have a vaccine in sight and we were afraid to do anything other than take furtive trips to the grocery store - I happen to have a little you know postage stamp backyard in my Brooklyn, behind my Brooklyn brownstone. And um something about the birds and the magnolia tree that I just hadn't noticed the color of like it just felt like everything was in technicolor just simply for me showing up every day and noticing it.

LD: I love that and I think that's the transformative piece of going for a morning walk and if we - you know if we are able-bodied and I don't take that um truth for myself uh with any um you know I am grateful that uh I am able-bodied and each one of those walks is uh an experience and one of the things I always say is the more I move the more I am moved. The more we all get out and move about I think um the more we can be moved and that was certainly true during the pandemic um there was I started my practice a lot with earbuds in listening to music or books or podcasts and it was really during the pandemic that I profoundly didn't want anything to to listen to I just wanted the quiet. And I feel as if the answers were in the quiet so that talk about that transformative piece and talk about that practice and talk about it has to be a long practice because I wouldn't have gotten to that lesson right until um you know until that experience. So now I really rarely listen to anything I'm very very fortunate to walk in a place where there's incredible wildlife I've been seeing snowy owls all the time which is amazing um that's getting me too. 

JD: We have um Deb who is watching and is asking of you and I'd love to know more - I don't know if Deb is someone you know or as a Reveler but grateful to have your questions yes - do you walk alone with others or a combination? We'd love to know a little about the specifics of your practice.

LD: Sure yeah so the answer is all of that. Um I would say um eight out of ten times I walk alone and I love that, I love um that time to problem solve to care for myself. I don't happen to be terribly good, I think this comes from an athletic background, I don't I'm not very connected to um what my gut is telling me. My head takes over tells all these stories it's very convincing um and so for me walking by myself really helps me connect to what this what the deep stories are within my bones and within my body so I love walking by myself I never feel alone. Um I'm often asked you know, “how do you keep yourself safe?” and it's a really fair question. So number one, I've been doing this walk in the same community I think everybody kind of knows who I am at this point it's such a small community. But in fairness, I always have my phone with me and I carry a whistle in my pocket I've thankfully never had to use it. I also like to recommend to people there's this really this isn't an ad it's just something that a number of my friends have carried - I now have one it's called a birdie and it can go on a key chain and it's one of those things that if you need to you can pull it open and it flashes and so on um so you know I know I'm terribly fortunate to walk in a place where um you know a single woman out walking is um feels mostly safe most of the time. 

JD: You say in your book that there have been occasions where you'll walk with a friend who in front and you'll be separate your friend will be in their apartment walking around their apartment while you're doing your own walk but you'll keep each other in each other's thoughts I'm guessing - 

LD: Yes, sometimes we'll actually be talking to each other and someone will be walking over here and I'll be walking over there sometimes you know a friend of mine who lived in New York during the pandemic I'm like okay get your earbuds in we're gonna walk you walk up and down the stairs I'll walk here i'll tell you what I'm seeing and let's just keep each other uh company.

JD: Yeah that's so great um, let's see if we have any other questions oh we've got some beautiful oh here's somebody asking do you walk at night? speaking of safety it's nice to look at the stars.

LD: It is and this sounds ridiculous but I always say a morning walk is actually a mindset so if your morning walk doesn't happen before noon you know go whenever you can. For me the notion of a morning walk is really about kicking off your day with a commitment to yourself and um a commitment to something that potentially you know can set your you know your day up beautifully. I have walked at night there was one particular walk um which I talk about in the book I don't frequently talk about but I got some very uh hard intimate troubling news one day when I was at work and I thought okay well I can go home and either get in bed - I mean I just wanted to hide and the great thing at that moment was I'd been walking for I think eight years and I knew actually the thing I needed to do was walk. And so, talk about night walk, I walked all night. I didn't know I was going to do that. And after every lap I would pause and I would just check in - are you done, do you need a cup of tea, hot shower, want to go to bed, whatever? And I wanted to walk and I think again it's sort of, I shared this in the book that adding motion to emotion for me helps me um understand it. And quite honestly that night walk was a grieving it was a grief walk and um each loop I did I really attended to a new phase in that grief process, anger, dismay, rage. And so I just you know each loop I was like okay this is the angry this is the angry loop let's go bring it bring it all in this is the weepy you know and um I got home at seven took a shower and went off to work. but I could say at that point it's a great question about safety again I'm six feet so I think most people probably think I'm not a female. I don't know, and I live in a place where um I do feel safe. And uh the note, it's awfully nice to look at the stars it sure is - wow that is it is magical. I will say i usually hit the road at about five in the morning most of the time the stars, certainly now, the stars are out then and recently some of the moons.

JD: Beautiful, beautiful the idea of a grief walk is so beautiful. And you know I think I really um take to heart your observation about yourself that it can be so easy to naturally be cut off from the wisdom of the body and our own body's intuition and I'm thinking about that beautiful book The Body Keeps the Score, which immediately such important work. So you're instinctively deciding when you got this phone call that really put you into grief that what your body needed was to walk and that would he would find healing through that action just feels like it's so so wonderful that you had that kind of wisdom about what you needed.

LD: I don't know that I would have had it if I hadn't had an eight eight year walking practice to be perfectly honest. As I said I grew up as an athlete and I was a rower and the way to be a successful rower was to ignore what your body was telling you right? Like you just rode through the pain and so I was well trained in that. Now I have this visualization you know um it doesn't matter if it your own child but do you know when you um pick up a newborn and you if people instinctively just start rocking like this yeah right you just you hold that little bundle and you just sway from one hip or one foot to the other for me that's my visualization. So if i have this knot in my belly that I can't or my chest or my back of my throat the way I visualize it is my walk is like a massage as I go out and I just start walking that knot loosens and I can begin to see the threads I can begin to see that story and again it's by adding motion to emotion that I'm a for me anyway um that I'm actually able to see my emotions. Otherwise, they're sort of like down here and I spend a lot of time up here.

JD: Yes this is all so inspiring. We would be remiss or I would be remiss if I didn't um bring up your Instagram account and following just because it feels like it's been a really like very current and you know um galvanizing force in the surface of everything you're talking about. It's called park here is that right on instagram?

LD: Exactly.

JD: And you've got 30 thousand followers and I follow you and it looks like you take some pictures on your walk sometimes is that right?

LD: Well so I you know, I'm in advertising, 10 years ago when I started my walking practice instagram was just coming onto the scene and quite honestly I'm about to turn 60 - so and when  I was 50 and walking into client meetings and clients would say to me, “Libby you've got to talk to me about social media what am i supposed to do?” I am the kind of person, I have to use something to really understand it. So actually when I started my walking practice my um accountability partner was my Instagram. I would take a picture because again that's my world art direction - I'd take a picture and post it. It was for me, it still is honestly, I don't even know who's watching. But honestly, it is for me to keep track of my days and to remember. It is a visual journal for me um you know just recently I've had a story done in Magnolia Journal which is Chip and Joanna Gaines and all of a sudden that number changed dramatically. But quite honestly it is still a very personal expression of what happens on my walks what I'm learning and yeah.

JD: Well again it speaks to that practice that you're doing for yourself and you're sharing it if people are interested but it's sort of a little bit back to that idea of purposeful purposelessness yes you know you're you're posting because it feeds you and if it's fine but it's kind of a different chord that is being sung than a lot of the chords in the world of social media that are often struck by people who are younger than us and no judgment on them but different sort of intentions -

LD: Yeah, yeah beautiful. I see a lot a lot of questions I know we probably have to go here about uh safety. So yeah, yeah I mean it's a it's a it actually should be the priority for everybody right. JD: I want to just mention one quote that I love by Anias Nin who of course you know as we know recently passed many of us - “walk as if you were kissing the earth with your feet.” And you know you mentioned him and as a matter of fact during part of COVID my boyfriend and I retreated to a little cabin that we have in the catskills and I would listen to titnathan while I was doing my own walking thinking about that very suggestion of his and how it really did like it changed the way I walked like it gave a kind of reverence to the act of my daily walks that really made a difference so yeah I'm grateful to him, I'm grateful to you, I'm grateful to all the people that you invoke in this book.

LD: Uh well and aren't you nice. I think you know one of the other things he talks about is um I'm not going to get the quote quite right but the intention is “as you place your foot on the ground think about the energy you put into the earth,” and that is a really beautiful way I think about that all the time how am I putting my foot on the ground, what energy do I - am I holding that I'm transmitting to the earth? And so it's just really um really beautiful connected. Um yeah and it's just it and I think you can we can all take that uh we can extend that and think not only are the is the energy that what is the energy we're putting into the earth and then what is the energy we're putting out into the world each day.

JD: Libby I want to close with this beautiful quote it almost brought me to tears um toward the end of your book not quote it's a paragraph that really talks about your feeling of the ultimate utility of your morning walks. “Ultimately morning walk is about love love for the planet love for the bend in the road love for the ability to do it love for bumping into friends along the way love for the blistering humidity love for the cold toes love for the time together love for the solitude love for the warm drink after love for the ability to move love for the space to think and just be morning walk is about love period.” I just thought that was so beautiful. So uh it's been such a gift to have you um as part of this conversation to be talking with you about this beautiful thing that you've created do walk navigate earth mind body and uh mind and body step by step. I'm going to definitely I'm so glad you mentioned that this is part of a series that sounds like something that all Revelers should be aware of and uh I also think clearly from our conversation and from having read the book myself that all Revelers very specifically should be focusing in on this and the and the the gifts that it has to give each of us especially at this age that we're in.

LD: Well thank you Jenny. A great conversation terrific questions and thank you everybody for joining I um you know if you have if you have any ongoing questions feel free to reach out on Instagram just dm me and um always love hearing from people so thank you so much it was a great conversation.

JD: So great to have you, take care - bye everyone!


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